Thursday, September 3, 2009

A Reader Writes: The Copyright Conundrum

TODAY, I'VE PROMOTED a comment exchange that happened down in yesterday's post because my comments got so big (first draft people, first draft) that they had to be submitted across four comments.

The chain was started by a letter by a reader named MR, who's an IT guy. I feel it exposes a lot of the fault lines around the whole "Balanced Copyright" argument. I want to get into my office and onto other things today, so I hope that MR will forgive me and not read some of my response as categorizing what he might believe personally. Any use of the word "you" or talking about sides is meant to convey a general impression of those making certain arguments, and not MR himself.

More importantly, I feel dialogues exactly like this is what has been missing so far from the whole "Fair Copyright" debate. I applaud MR for writing in with his thoughts, and I again strongly encourage my fellow film and TV writers to make yours known, both by submitting to the Copyright Econsultation, and maybe even by wading in over at Michael Geist or Fair Copyright sites.

MR writes:

I've spent the last 25+ years in the IT sector constantly absorbing (i.e. surviving) one disruptive innovation after another. Reading your blog has given me insight and a greater appreciation of the challenges your profession faces (your posts regarding work product/processes, copyright, the CRTC, etc). It's very much appreciated.

Having said this though, I wonder where this sense of entitlement comes from? Your digital works have access to a worldwide audience numbering over a billion potential patrons (internet pop and climbing); who are primed to be gratified instantly; at a near zero cost of distribution (via the evil internet); and you can't think of way to make a living? Fine, our kids will. I don't know what else to say.

It is your industry that broke the deal. Copyright is intended to foster the arts, innovation, reward the creators so that our culture is enriched. Tell me, what great Canadian works have fallen into the public domain since you were born? It isn't our fault that your business is predicated on the continued suppression of the public domain. Oh, please my fellow Canadians - I am deserving of a MONOPOLY on imagination. I really, really need a 50 year monopoly entitlement. Otherwise, I may have to get a second job to make ends meet. Is this what your saying?

The status quo isn't working. A law which has already criminalized 99% of otherwise law abiding tax payers isn't the answer. If the 21st century is all about the "digital economy" - we as a society must ensure that copyright is structured to regulate COMMERCIAL INTERESTS solely. That's it. Don't get me wrong; I'll be the first one to take up your cause if another was exploiting your work for commercial gain. But I'm not interested in criminalizing teenagers, students, or grandmothers. Suffer the free riders and focus instead on the upper percentile who will PAY.

YES. PEOPLE will pay, and have always paid, to be entertained. We'll also continue to pay for entertainment. You should not need a fifty year monopoly in this age of instant dissemination to a global audience. A more reasonable approach to length would be five years, renewable in five-year increments to a maximum of 20 years. Funding for the arts could be secured by diverting 10% of the proceeds of copyright to a fund to help creators. Each subsequent renewal would further increase this contribution by 20% so that a 20 year copyright entitlement would see 70% of the proceeds go to a new arts fund. These numbers are simply thrown out to foster further discussion. I know little of the monies involved... The principle is to: 1) encourage shorter copyright length; and 2) have established creators fund more directly less established ones.

We may need to allow disruptive influences in your industry. We also need a healthy public domain. It's time the pendulum was allowed to swing the other way. Otherwise, your industry will join our telecom industry as digital backwaters - too much control in to few hands. Stagnate.

Anyhow, I don't mean to sound like a dick. Your blog has made me realise that I don't have an easy solution to this problem. For this I thank you as it's made me revise my position on this issue.

Unfortunately, I'm not sufficiently familiar with your industry's costing to be able to address your 50 million dollar challenge. In my industry an ROI needs to be no more than 5 years but with a potential of a billion customers at zero cost for manufacture and distribution as outlined above - the funding would be there. On a 50 year ROI, I have no idea who would take that chance.

My response:

The thing that strikes me most about this debate is that the rhetoric has advanced so very far while the arguments haven't. "Your kids will", and admitting that "I'm not sufficiently familiar with your industry's costing to be able to address your 50 million dollar challenge," but not connecting that back to the central point is the problem here: To me, to people like me, you simply CANNOT put all the stuff you want to put on the table and ask us to take on faith that "it will work out."

"People will always pay for entertainment." What are you talking about? What has the whole downloading culture taught us, then? There is an entire generation for whom that is not true about music. For all the nose stretchers and truth-distortions the music industry has put out since Napster, they're not wrong about that. The value proposition in music is gone. Destroyed. Otherwise great, moral, decent kids -- children of friends, have looked at me mystified when I told them I paid for songs I downloaded from Itunes.

Mystified.

You talk about my sense of entitlement? Well, when I hear about the pendulum swinging back and lets take copyright to five years, all I can wonder is, "are we going to do the same with all inherited wealth?" Really. If I made money trading securities, or building a woodworking business, and I'm quite rich and I die, I'm allowed to pass that onto my family, am I not? Oh sure, it's taxed. But I can still transfer my mill, or the chain of restaurants, or the computer company I started in my garage to my heirs, correct? I can't just start making a digital music player and call it Ipod because it's five years since it was introduced, right? Is Google going to turn over all its propietary code five years from now?

Of course not.

Now - step away from the rhetoric and don't ask me why I feel so entitled, but you explain to ME why the fruits of an artist's intellectual property are different.

Or as another commenter put it on the post yesterday: "Does the guy who makes your pizza have a sense of entitlement for wanting you to pay him? I mean, really, we all have to eat. Isn't the right to food greater than the privilage of charging for it? You are dealing in grandiose abstractions."

There are a whole lot of things that would be better if they weren't allowed to be corporately exploited for as long as they are. It would be better for Canada if the media wasn't so concentrated. But it is. Are we going to change all law? Get rid of inherited entitlements and wealth? Really? Or are you just talking about screwing over the artists, now? What about athletes? He's a great pitcher, but Halladay is making a whole lot of ridiculous money. Oh, and those Real Madrid footballers who blew through Toronto last month -- those guys make way too much, too. Why is that right?

There's a particular strain of muddleheaded evangelism that attaches to the internet industries like a wad of gum on the bottom of a shoe. I covered the early days of the .com internet for a show called MediaTelevision. For about four years I spoke to all the visionaries and freethinkers, and would be geniuses and entrepeneurs. And I'm telling you, the language I heard was very, very similar to what I hear today from a lot of those arguing for "balanced copyright."

That says to me two things: 1) that though fifteen years have passed, the arguments haven't advanced, and 2) the last time we took a flyer on the promises and the hype of that crowd, we had the dot com bust -- and billions of venture capital evaporated overnight.

All these boring questions I'm asking now -- "If we do what you're asking, how does the model work?" are very similar to the simple, "hey what's your business model" questions we all asked 15 years ago. We were called negative then, and told we "didn't get it," and all sorts of other dodges. And ninety percent of those geniuses and visionaries with stock options up the yoni were cast out in the wilderness a while later. They were smug, they burned through money like it was water, and they slunk away, conveniently forgetting that, uh, you know, the people who raised those doubts about how it was all going to work out? They were not "old school" or "tired" or "not in the know" or "locked into old paradigms," they were, in fact, RIGHT.

So forgive me if our trust quotient is low. When someone asks you a question you can't answer, or tells you that the answer to the question you've just asked about your ENTIRE LIVELIHOOD isn't relevant, or worse, isn't even their problem -- the desire to listen to what comes next is, shall we say, low.

It's amazing to me that none of the "fair copyright" [that phrase is starting to read to me like "Ignorance is Strength"] seem to get that. For what it's worth, until you jump off a cliff with calling me entitled and calling for five year copyright, there are general principles that I find nothing to disagree with.

I think that there should be a way to enshrine an expansion of non-commercial uses, and that the main focus of copyright should be to protect commercial infringements. That being said, the academic view that fair use, or use in education = free is ridiculous. The fact that tenured Professors with job security are demanding free use from freelancers with none is a bit odious to me, frankly. Surely there is a middle ground between "so restrictive it's impossible to use in study" and "free."

Second, I am personally offended by the corporate machinations that have resulted in the extension of copyright beyond 50 years. After that time, with millions made and more to come, I'm not so interested in serving the interests of Mickey Mouse. The public domain is important. Corporate lobbying should not be able to effectively kill the public domain by ensuring nothing will ever pass into it again. Now those two positions alone -- plus the distaste I have for the punishment and annoyance that digital locks present -- are moves to the middle of a TRULY balanced policy. And if you talk to most artists who are engaged in these issues, you will find a similar, concerted movement to try and rationalize the consumer good with our needs to be able to earn a living.

But here's where you guys are fucking it up:

We float a solution -- maybe not a great one -- maybe not even the best one -- about moving toward collective licensing and a levy/pay system. It's a whole new vision of copyright and fair use. It would be a BEAR to work this out with media corporations, but we think it's worth pursuing. And what is the reaction to this concrete idea from the supposed "fair copyright" side? Instant rejection. "Ipod Tax!" "No!" "Not my hard drive!" "Unfair!" "No, no, no!" How's it played in the media? An Ipod tax. You know why? Because the association with the hated music industry is the best way to quash the idea before it can even gain traction and debate. One of your stated goals is that consumer behavior not be criminalized. Well, that takes care of that. But nope, you reject it out of hand -- and play right back into the hands of the corporate DMCA solution. Great job, guys, on the way to beating your drum, you're being played like a fiddle.

So fine, you stamp your feet, say "no, no, no!" "No levies!" "Not fair." Okay, fine.

What's your alternate proposal for us, then? Show us that you actually are thinking about copyright in a "balanced" way that tries to find a compromise that meets everyone's needs? Oh, um, vague promise, vague promise, and if you can't work it out, your kids will.

I see. In other words: Fuck You.

The myopia of the "fair" copyright side comes from the fact that you go in with goals that are so radical and different, so "let's blow everything up," that you sound like a lunatic fringe and you make it impossible for anyone who's actually an industry stakeholder to support you. Arguing against being able to extend copyright to 70, 75, 150 years? Yup, that's a solid argument that I can get behind but...what? Oh no, you want copyright to be 5 years? WTF? Looking at people who are scared about their livelihood, rejecting their solutions without discussing them, or trying to understand why they've come to that position, and then turning around and saying, "sell T shirts?" That's offensive. And in the face of that, the submissions from a lot of the big corporate media interests are going to seem reasonable by comparison.

There's an unholy coalition around "balanced copyright" that serves it very poorly. The first group are the Internet evangelists who've been talking bullshit for well nigh on 20 years now. And the second group is students for whom this is their "one issue." The latter know nothing of negotiation, business, the way the world works, economics or just about anything else, but by God they know they should be able to sample and remix that clip from Gossip Girl or Snoop Dogg anyway, anytime they want.

I had a kid on Twitter yesterday who started out berating ACTRA and the WGC for re-tweeting one of my posts. I asked him about six times if he understood what the artists' concerns were and in response not only did he have nothing, he consistently presented a straw man argument about logos I'd used in an earlier story which would only have been the slightest bit relevant if, somehow, I was against the extension of fair dealing to protect parody and satire. Which, of course, I'm not.

But nuance, or, in fact, anything other than the straight up and down, marching forward to the great utopian future of free copyright, doesn't play with this crowd. If you're not with them, you're Universal Music or Disney all the way.

The "Fair Copyright" side, unfortunately, is an echo chamber that in its own way is as closed, as self-serving, and as out of touch as the record labels they love to feel superior to. And that's what's really discouraging about this debate. I feel the really important -- and DOABLE things, are not going to get done because they're wrapped up in a whole lot of utopianist crazy.

55 rumbles:

Chris said...

Excellent arguement. Well presented.

MR said...

Denis,

It's not matter of taking a leap of faith. Our culture existed quite well when terms were much shorter. How does charging a performance fee every time "Happy Birthday" is sung in public induce a long dead composer that create new melodies?

For what it's worth, I'd like to focus to be solely on digital works as this is where the issue of downloading is most disruptive.

Getting to your point regarding a 50 million funding challenge. You feel that sales within the first five years of a season one DVD set, product placement where applicable (not always an option - no Coors Light vendors in ancient Rome for example), Pay-per-View, an iTunes like storefront to a billion+ potential patrons, a fan site actively trying to grow a community around your work (selling T-Shirts - yes, it always comes back to the swag.), etc... is not a workable premise?

Your greatest enemy is obscurity and not the free-riders I would think.

And, yes - our kids will make it work. You sound at times like the pianists at the turn of the last century that thought that the sky was falling with the advent of the mechanical player-piano. In fact, every new advance in technology since the printing press as been viewed with trepidation rather than opportunity.

I repeat - people pay to be entertained. They always have through the ages and they always will! This whole downloading culture which you keep alluding to isn't your market. Furthermore, you haven't lost a single red cent from it. I for one, would rather have these kids making their mortgage payment and becoming more productive members of society.

Do not waste energy on the free-riders! Get over it. Focus on guys like me who are able to pay but simply don't know you exist. We've left Kansas and it's 300+ channel to arrive at a 5000+ channel universe. Like it or not, you need to compete in a global environment.

Regarding the pendulum and mixing apples (real property rights) and oranges (imaginary property rights). What can I say, you have every right (and you do) to transfer your wealth to your descendants. But, how does transferring your copyright to your descendents encourage you create further? You'll write a TV pilot from the beyond the grave?

I'm not going to nitpick by saying the Ipod is covered by Trademarks and Patents rather then Copyright. BTW, patents only entitle the inventor to 20 years protection. You know, the transistor being conceived in the fifties leading to PC in the 70's, the mouse conceived in the 60's leading to general use in the 80's, LCD's in the 70's - general use in the 90's, etc. There's a trend here, if only I knew what is was (wink). Anyhow, I digress.

Regarding your point on the artists rights to intellectual property. Staying in the realm of television, what public good is served by depriving Canadians of TV content produced in begone eras (50's, 60's, 70's)? How would 'monetizing' these works encourage you to create today? How does keeping them in vault and out of the public domain make it possible for you to earn a living as a writer? That's what I'm trying to better understand.

Regarding the pizza delivery guy, he can't sell you the same slice over and over again. He also can't sell you that pizza once in his life and expect to be paid for it over the course of 50-100 years. As for athletes, I'm unaware of any who collect an income past their playing days.

I'm going to wrap this up by saying that I don't have a problem with an Ipod tax per say. I'd really appreciate a more direct contribution from you copyright holders though. It's tiresome to have you guys always saddle my industry with the levies...

So, your against a 20 year term (5 years plus three renewals). Your against any direct contribution to funding from the proceeds of your copyright (5y @ 10%, 10y @ 30%, etc.).

Fine. Good thing I'm the dirty commie and soft on crime.

I appreciate your allowing me to voice my opinion however uninformed it may be.

DMc said...

How does charging a performance fee every time "Happy Birthday" is sung in public induce a long dead composer that create new melodies?

Again you want to go to the abstract. The entire problem, the whole disconnect here is that you guys insist on taking the argument to the abstract when we are arguing in the RIGHT NOW with bills piling up. Stick to the now. "Happy Birthday" is not the argument that speaks to the relevance of the law NOW, for US. It's a way to change the subject back to safe rhetorical ground.

Getting to your point regarding a 50 million funding challenge. You feel that sales within the first five years etc... is not a workable premise?

No I don't. Or more accurately, I'm not certain. I do know that in models that came before, catalog sales and long tail sales were significant. It's theoretically possible you're right I guess, just like it's possible one day we'll all have personal jetpacks.


In fact, every new advance in technology since the printing press as been viewed with trepidation rather than opportunity.

I repeat - people pay to be entertained. They always have through the ages and they always will! This whole downloading culture which you keep alluding to isn't your market. Furthermore, you haven't lost a single red cent from it.


Philosophy. Falsehood. Oh, I see, now it's not relevant because it's not my market, and I haven't lost from it. You get to cite precedent in terms of how history greets new technology, but I don't get to use the recent historical example that has already started to repeat itself with film and tv piracy? You're not even being intellectually consistent within the same sentence.

DMc said...

. We've left Kansas and it's 300+ channel to arrive at a 5000+ channel universe. Like it or not, you need to compete in a global environment.

Three cliches in one paragraph. Not bad. Again, MR, this is the same stuff I've been hearing since 1993. I'm not arguing with you, I'm saying, before you kick the legs out from under my table and ask me to come out shooting, you have to tell me what the plan is. If there is no plan, don't ask me to sign on to burning down the system wholesale.

Next you talk about "imaginary property" rights, which is where we perhaps come to the root of your disconnect. Property to you is property, but intellectual property is different.

It's not. I appreciate that you think it is. And I start to understand how, proceeding from that baseline, you can parrot the same dippy bullshit I've heard for twenty years.

But here's the problem. If you make that distinction, you leave artists behind FOREVER. If you can't respect the basic integrity of our right to have our labor and creation treated as our property, then fundamentally, you are on the wrong side of the line, and though we might have to grit our teeth to do it, we'll go with the corporations.

In the end, this comes down to what value you put on artistic works. You say people will always pay for entertainment, even though that's been proven in recent history to be demonstrably untrue.

In one breath, you are okay with athlete's salaries because they don't collect a dime past their playing days, without connecting it back to the reality of the position: an athlete's career might be a decade if they're lucky --if they're not felled by injury. So you see no problem with earning 20 million dollars a year for three years or whatever, because when they're hurt and they're 40 and their knees go out, they're not still being paid for something they did years ago. The fact that they made all that money in a short timespan is fine. Even if it is a lot of money. Heck, that's what the market bears, right?

Now let's move onto the pizza. Yes, he does not sell you the same slice over and over again. And what determines that slice's cost? The ingredients that go into it plus the labor, plus overhead, plus the profit margin for the guy who makes the slice. There's a quantifiable set of numbers that has to determine what the price point is and how many you have to sell to make that business viable.

For an author, a TV writer, a film writer -- the career might be as short as a pro athlete's. There may in fact be years between jobs. There's ageism that factors you out early. And it's unpredictable. And the ingredients are ultimately capricious and unpredictable. What prevents me from creating something new? I don't know I can't predict it. But you'd yoke me to a system where I better come up with something new every year, or I'm fucked.

It's unworkable. And the system that's sprung up around that, and around works of value, is a combination of low upfront payment against payments over time. If for whatever reason you want it to be an upfront payment only, great. Get ready for the 100 dollar slice of pizza. Not workable.

The Beatles recorded 232 songs. John is dead, so now hey should be open and free to use everywhere. Geez, bet they wish they'd recorded 1000 songs.

If you don't like the residual model for art, well, then don't buy it. Create your own fucking art. Write your own fucking novels and film and shoot your own fucking screenplays, and then explain to your kids how this is better than Twilight, which they can't have because copyright holders are mean!

We have a fundamental disconnect here. I realize this. That's fine. That's your prerogative. But don't ask us to go with you. Respectfully, you don't even get the thing it is that you don't get.

contenunu said...

You don’t need an incentive to create after you’re dead. Your heirs did not create your own works and are incapable of creating new works by you. That’s how intellectual property, which is just a noun phrase and does not indicate a form of true “property,” differs from other kinds.

DMc said...

There is absolutely no difference whatsoever between the argument you're making and me saying, "John Smith built a great house by the lake. Now John Smith is dead. I can now take his house."

NO difference.

Except --

there is ALREADY a recognition in the marketplace of ideas that the public domain is worthwhile. The spirit of the laws, that works pass into the public domain after a set time, should be preserved. The principal should not be extended further. I agree wholeheartedly in enshrining that. Which is a move toward consumer good.

You think we should go further, and respectfully: no. You ask for too much.

And in pushing that cockamamie agenda, you will wind up with far less than we ALL could have gotten from a copyright act.

Instead of focusing on a logical goal, you'll die on the hill of some abstract idea that's easily dismissed.

It would be funny if it weren't so ridiculously sad.

Blaise Alleyne said...

I admittedly don't have enough time to read and response to the entire post and all the comments in detail, but I wanted to address one point.

The value proposition in music is gone. Destroyed. Otherwise great, moral, decent kids -- children of friends, have looked at me mystified when I told them I paid for songs I downloaded from Itunes.

You say music, but you're really talking about digital audio recordings. Music is broader than that.

First, the economics...

That statement confuses price with value. People still value digital audio files, it's just a little silly to ask people to pay for them. It's basic supply and demand economics.

Given constant demand, supply and price are inversely related. As supply increases, price decreases. As supply approaches infinity, price approaches zero.

The marginal cost of reproduction of a digital audio file is essentially zero. They can be reproduced ad infinitum.

The failure of the record industry's business model has little to do with entitlement. It's just bad business to expect people to pay for abundant goods.

But have people stopped paying for music? I would ask Corey Smith, or Dispatch, or Trent Reznor, or Peter Katz, or Amanda Palmer, or Sufjan Stevens, or Terry McBride, or Jill Sobule, etc.

To say that the value proposition in music is destroyed is to present an extremely limited view of what music is.

DMc said...

Blaise,

Wow, I'm really sorry that you don't have the time to read the whole long series of posts here that talks about how you guys and your muddlheaded, half-assed rhetoric is both fucking up the fight you can win, and making short shrift of the livelihoods of artists who have actually taken the time to work through a true balance of consumer and artists' interests -- many of whom have been thinking about and dealing with copyright issues for as long as you've been alive.

If you did take a couple of your very, very precious moments to read it, you might or might not realize that once again you've proved the point that I'm making.

You only want to discuss the issues where you feel you are on solid ground. You come here, you make what must be the most tangential, cursory scan and you retreat to what you've seen and heard before, which is the least relevant part of the discussion here.

Copyfighter, heal thy rhetoric. Stop drinking the brave new world Kool Aid and deign to join the rest of us here in the real, and maybe we'll have a productive discussion.

You won't, of course. And that is why all the gnashing of teeth and stamping of feet comes to naught, and why it's so easy from a propaganda point of view for others (not me, but others with the ear of the government) to paint you guys as little better than pirates.

MR said...

Denis, you're quite right. I honestly didn't realise how important an amortization period of 50 years was to creators in the television industry. But could we not shorten this period to 20 years (doubling residual payments?) and still have a viable TV industry?

The other light that came on for me, was your equating real property rights as being the same as 'imaginary property' rights. We do indeed have a disconnect on this point. They can't be the same, here's why...

If someone steals your wristwatch, you'll never be able to tell the time again by looking at your now naked wrist. Your loss is very real. Society can measure it and has several centuries of established case law by which to base redress.

Contrast this with someone copying your TV pilot and reading it without your knowledge for his own pleasure. How are you the poorer for it? You have been deprived of what as you still have the script in hand. More importantly - all those characters and plot lines remain solely yours to exploit commercially.

Again, I'm not trying to be a dick (or obtuse as they say in polite company). And I do appreciate your taking this time to enlighten me on this matter. I'm a less certain of my position because of it.

Oh, and you've since posted while I wrote this up... more reading.

Geoffrey Firmin said...

Now I'm thinking that MR is simply baiting us. "Contrast this with someone copying your TV pilot and reading it without your knowledge for his own pleasure. How are you the poorer for it?" Because that's what we do for pay. That's our job! I really find this incredibly exasperating, I take from these comments that a spanking new creation, sourced from my imagination, is less valuable to MR than a mass produced wrist watch, that something invented by mind is intrinsically less valuble than one made by hand or machine. That's just dense. I suppose the thinking is that as we "imagine" new things, and these people "imagine" things themselves there is no inherent value in the imagined. They can make up a story in their head, why pay for one someone else comes up with one. They don't know how to make a watch so they are willing to pay for one. They can't even tell the fucking time. It's late.

MR said...

Further to our disconnect regarding real property rights and copyright.

I am well withing my rights to build the exact same copy of your cottage by the lake. Right beside you. I can even paint my front door the same colour to match what you just did. Heck, I can even go buy the exact same model and make as your car. It would be weird granted. Legal none the less. I could even take your old lawnmower that you placed at the curb for disposal. Fix it up and use it I see fit. You'd have no property right to that mower.

Even a shmuck like me realises the we can't treat 'imaginary' property the same way. I'm comfortable with the notion that I'll never be able to write a teen vampire novel and call it Twilight*. I also fully understand that you and I could very well be writing the same novel (unbeknown to the other) and it will come down to whoever publishes first. The other guy will be SOL. Furthermore, it's accepted that I can't simply take your work and make it my own (no building the exact same cottage as in the example above).

If I got this wrong, please enlighten me.

*For the purposes of full disclosure, my daughter is an avid fan who has paid for the DVD, paid to see in the cinema (a few times), bought every book in the series and fully intends to buy a ticket when the next movie comes out in November. So, our kids understand that they need to pay for the work of others.

Anyhow, always a pleasure.

Marc

DMc said...

I despair over the whole tenor of this debate because in the end, it's extremely complex, and eventually, and usually very quickly, it verges over into people talking about stuff that they don't know anything about.

To impart to you the knowledge that you'd need to understand the point of view of the creative artist, MR, would probably take you living in our shoes for years. We don't have that kind of time. The imbalance, for those of us who study up on copyright issues, is that we understand the consumer side of the argument a whole heckuva lot better than you understand our side, because we're consumers too. And also because, in the daily execution of our writing lives we've run up against the limitations of what we can say because of copyright restriction.

You use the example of reading a pilot script. First truth -- the pilot script has no value. That's part of what we're worried about. A script is not a book, it is a blueprint. It does not achieve its value until it is executed, which takes a whole mess of capitalization.

There are way smarter people on copyright than me. Geist, for one. There's also a book out of the US that I want to direct you to in a moment, but I'm going to have to continue that in another post, because now Blogger has this idiotic character limit on comments -- which is directly related to spam bots corrupting the blogger code. The brave new internet world in action!

DMc said...

Anyway, the point is that copyright and the current debate is all about framing. And for now, the copyright maximalists (the record companies and studios like Sony) are doing a far better job of framing than the Fair Copyright types. Because Artists like me hear the Fair Copyrighters talk and talk and talk about consumer rights, and when it comes to the part about the new business models that are going to save us, it's shluffed over.

Well, it can't be shluffed over. That's the point. In this debate, the WGC (me at the Town Hall in Toronto) presented an alternate business model based on collective licensing and a move toward levy-based collections rather than punitive DMCA style enforcement.

That's rejected, but there is no argument offered in its place for artists. That's just bad framing.

In a sense, strip away the foofera over consumer rights, moral rights, property rights -- all of it, and copyright right from the beginning has always been about BUSINESS MODELS. Always. Of how artists get compensated. The very first laws in England sprang up because of the publishing of a book that was immediately pirated. And the author refused to release the next volume until protections were in place.

MR said...

Geoffrey, I'm trying to better understand the challenges creators in the television industry face. I'm sorry if it comes across as baiting. Perhaps my follow-up post contrasting real property rights and copyright will allow you to add something more concrete. You seem to beleive that watches fall from trees and were not first invented by someone.

Regarding that watch. The consequences are quite different from the loss of a ten dollar walmart special as opposed to a 10,000 dollar rolex. Society treats the latter more seriously than the former.

Again, it comes down to how do we value the loss. You post to remind us that your labour warrants special consideration. Fine, I get it - I'll remember to bow in your presence next time.

But, as a society we need to arrive at a reasonbale way to assess a creators loss in the TV industry.

DMc said...

You asked if copyright terms could be 20 years. I don't know. Probably. Sure. I would need to see the business model for how that worked. I would need to see it laid out before me first. But I'm not willing to discuss it in the current climate because the supposed "fair copyright" people are coming from a way scarier, "no copyright" stance. You started out saying 5 years! I know in my bones that's not going to work, not for you to be able recoup investment for a movie or TV show, so I have to kneejerk a NO to that. By going so far one way, it stifles debate in the middle.

Now to the book I mentioned. It's called "Moral Panics and the Copyright Wars" and it's by William Patry.

I've read Patry for a while, and he's been working copyright most of his life. He might not agree with all I've said here. But I think if you really want to understand this debate, what's at stake and you want to strip away the rhetoric from all sides, you owe it to yourself to go buy it.

In this interview on Techdirt., Patry explains a lot of what he's talking about.

but in that same article I want to point you to the relevant portion for this discussion:

I think that there are works that have no need for copyright, such as private letters, works of architecture, and many business documents, to say nothing of emails. I also think the term of protection is way too long for all works. Unfortunately, we have never tried to fit the length of protection to particular types of works. There are works though, especially those involving large investment, like motion pictures that do need the ability to secure financing through the asset of copyright and to go into court to stop massive unauthorized copying. This is also true for commercial label music. I think ideology or displeasure with business practices has interfered with recognition of these legitimate needs.

That's all I'm saying.

I'll tell you what, MR, you go buy that book. I've already ordered it. When you read it, we can reconvene -- and you may still feel differently than I do, but you probably won't be quite as clueless about the business model argument; and you might understand the film and TV writer's fear a bit better.

And hopefully, you might understand the larger point that I'm making here -- that with a Conservative Government drafting the new law, the "Copyfighters" are hurting themselves by their absolute refusal to recognize the legitimacy of the business model discussion vis a vis this issue -- not just for the evil corporate rights owners, but for creators such as myself.

MR said...

Thanks Denis, will do. It was on my list via that same Techdirt entry.

I've bumped it to top.

The rest of your post is spot on.

All the best.

Marc

carpet said...

It is a very simple and elegant solution, but I disagree with the levy in principle and in practice.

The distribution of the moneys is the main sticking point. The public will pay for it, so it should reflect what the public wants... but how is that logistically possible? I mean seriously, how does it work? $10 for each hard drive sold, pooled into a giant fund, paid to all WGC members in amounts based on... what? Canadian-made content is barely on the radar for most entertainment seekers (other than music) so you can't just toss X dollars to the guy who wrote 2 episodes of some awful show like Billable Hours 3 years ago or whatever. Why automatically give money to underperforming or substandard content? My liberal heart goes out to human beings in need, not bad TV shows that can't pull in the advertising dollars to support themselves. Give the screenwriter some EI.

Look, that was a bit flip, but I just can't see a creative industry relying on levies collected and distributed by the government as a healthy long term plan. And why is it just for screenwriters anyway? What about DPs, production designers and editors? What about the stars? Film productions get tax credits other industries can only dream of. And now we're going to pretend that if it weren't for downloading and copying the whole creative team would be getting paychecks galore? Of course they wouldn't, and the public knows it. They're not downloading The Border, they're downloading Entourage. I'm a key creative in this industry, and I don't think the public owes me a cent for the crap I work on that they probably never download. And the WGC doesn't either, but only because I'm not a writer.

I say: first make taxpayers care about what's made in Canada with HEAVY TV/theatrical CanCon regulations (do the whole Canadian radio thing with series and features). Yeah, it'll never happen, but that's how the government can help. Make the public care, and then they'll watch the shows, and then advertisers will pay more, and you'll sell more DVDs/digital downloads, etc. Despite your anecdotal experiences with relatives, there are many people old and young who pay for things they could otherwise obtain for free. Look at vinyl sales today -- higher than ever. It's not that people won't pay for music. They just want to receive something they value for their money. Make it easy to pay for a download, sell at the right price, make a nice DVD box... MAKE A GOOD SHOW. That's how to get the money.

John McFetridge said...

MR said, "Denis, you're quite right. I honestly didn't realise how important an amortization period of 50 years was to creators in the television industry. But could we not shorten this period to 20 years (doubling residual payments?) and still have a viable TV industry?"

I don't understand how making residual payments to the creators undermines a viable TV industry? What would shortening this period do, exactly?

I have no idea if any of the shows I watch on TV from the last fifty years pay any residuals or not (in fact, some do and some don't but it makes no difference). All the shows are available to me with my cable package.

To whom exactly, would a shorter period of copyright make a difference?

If new shows want to use ideas that already existing shows created, they have to cut them in for a piece. There's a new version of The Prisoner I'm looking forward to so I don't see where having the original under copyright has been a problem.

It costs a lot of money to make a TV show. One of the things, among hundreds, the producers have to pay for is the rights. It's usually a pretty small amount of the overall budget and probably has never been the thing that decided a remake or sequel didn't get made.

My cable bill certainly wouldn't be any less if the shows were all public domain - the cost of the show after its first couple of windows is negligible.

What is this debate really about?

Really.

Gustav said...

Lots of fascinating reading. Denis, put your head down and solve this web of problems. Seriously, if you can't, then no one can.

Point of information: what does "Bueller?" mean?

DMc said...

It's actually more than a bit flip. And it puts me in a bad position here because it means I've got to try to find a nice way to say something that there's just no nice way to say:

You have no idea what the heck you're talking about.

The distribution of the moneys is the main sticking point. The public will pay for it, so it should reflect what the public wants.

Wow. Speaking of fallacy. No, actually the public will not be "paying for it" -- under this scheme the exchange of value will be a trade of value for value. Consumers would be able to continue the behavior they seem to want, which is easy access to material, downloading, torrenting as they see fit, infinite portability on any device they want, and nobody coming at them with lawsuits or digital lock bullshit. In exchange, copyright holders get to make their living, and stable financing continues to get shows made.

Any collection society will be run as the collection society for the levy is currently run, as a not-for-profit organization paid for out of the levy. The public's part in the transaction is the use of the copyrighted materials. You don't g et say over what money gets distributed, or how. You want the rules changed, that's the give and take under this principle.

how is that logistically possible? I mean seriously, how does it work?

I don't know, because that's not my area of expertise. But I imagine they'd take their cues from formulae developed by similar Copyright Collection Agencies. See, this isn't a new idea -- new for North America, maybe. But not elsewhere. In the UK alone there are at least 17 bodies doing this for various artists groups. There are examples already at work in Australia, Germany, France, throughout South America and other parts of Europe. There are plenty of precedents and dozens of models that are up and operating right now.

Even in Canada, formula have been worked out for disbursements for the Screenwriters Collection Society -- forumlae already exist for foreign TV sales. Actuarial experts, and people advising the guild already have basic principles to go by. It's actually pretty arrogant to think that just because you can't see how it would work, it must be unworkable. I mean, it's not even really your business, is it? Not unless you're somebody who might be getting some money and want to know if you're fairly compensated. Then again, most people I know who get money from the Canadian Screenwriters Collection society now just cash the damn cheque.

DMc said...

As not for profit organizations, there is financial oversight in place to make sure there isn't abuse. So it then becomes a policing or watchdog issue. Still has nothign to do with you.

?My liberal heart goes out to human beings in need, not bad TV shows that can't pull in the advertising dollars to support themselves. Give the screenwriter some EI.

That's an interesting political rant, but it's not germane to the discussion. And, uh, by the way, as self-employed independent contractors, screenwriters are not eligible for EI, though we do have to pay into it. Could you direct your energies to getting that changed for us? That would be super. While you're at it, maybe you could do something about getting some income averaging for us? See, we've got this problem that our income varies wildly from year to year. But if we have a good year, we're taxed like we always make that kind of money, even though the next year we could easily make a tenth of that. It makes it extremely challenging to budget and plan for a normal life. So long as you've got all the answers, could you write a letter about that on our behalf too?

Or is it possible that maybe it's a subject a little more complicated than you counted on?

And why is it just for screenwriters anyway? What about DPs, production designers and editors? What about the stars?

To understand this, you should go and read up on what "above the line" and "below the line" means, and how and why payments are structured the way they are. Much as in a factory, where some employees make an hourly wage and some are salaried, not everyone on a film or TV crew is paid the same way. In answer to your question though, the principal actors, the directors, producers/copyright holders likely would share in royalty payments, through the collection societies of their various guilds and professional organizations.

Film productions get tax credits other industries can only dream of. Do you mean like farmers? Mining? Oil and Gas -- like the companies exploiting the Tar sands? Or do you mean real estate development, the auto industry, most manufacturing, high tech, construction and infrastructure, pharmaceuticals, etc, etc, etc.

You should read the Canadian Federal Budget sometime. Apparently there's a lot of dreaming going on. Tax credits grease the wheels and provide support for most industries. Film and TV is not special -- except maybe in the case of return on investment. In terms of labor and economic return to the community, just about every economic development agency has flat out said that tax credits given to film are a very efficient and effective way to stimulate many sectors of a local economy.

Oh, and all those crews can also work on American shows that shoot here. Writers don't.

As for the whole public caring/not caring thing? Canadians are perverse, and odd, and self-hating and contradictory. If you want them to care, have something get a good review the NY Times. Then they care.

I mused to a few friends today how perverse it was that The Littlest Hobo going online was provoking stories in the paper and expressions of nostalgia. For the biggest piece of crap series ever to come out of Canada.

Yup...we hate everything (except we don't, as ratings for homegrown fare are up significantly over the last few years) but we're nostalgic for crap. Yeah. The whole make Canadians care thing? Not the way to go on this. Oh, and it has fuck all to do with what we're talking about. The subject is copyright.

My anecdotal and representative examples aren't relevant, but you want to reference the statistically insignificant "vinyl renaissance." Ok, got it.

Lot of heat in your POV there, friend. Not a whole lot of light though, I'm afraid.

DMc said...

Sorry this new Blogger 4096 character limit thing (it's a workaround they made because spammers found a way to corrupt the blogger code through comments that were undeletable or something) makes this exceedingly hard to flow if someone posts while you're composing.

The above two comments are in response to the comment by "carpet."

Gustav asks a question, finally, that's easy to answer -- about the meaning of "Bueller? Bueller?"

It's a reference to the great John Hughes 1986 film FERRIS BUELLER'S DAY OFF.

Ben Stein plays a teacher who tries to elicit answers from his class to certain questions...nobody participates, and he winds up having to throw the answers out himself. Later he takes attendance, and calls out Ferris' name several times, only to hear silence back.

It's generally used as shorthand in a way when you're calling out someone but don't really expect to get an answer back.

Wil Z said...

Boy, Karl Marx would have had a field day with the internet.

Part of the problem is this pervasive feeling that "online" is somehow an alternate reality with no real world consequence. We can be character assassins and assholes and hedonists and flirts and thieves online. It's not us. It's terra nova with no rules.

Now the argument has been extended to property an ownership. The neo-Marxist utopia that these "consumers" are looking to bring about, where art and ideas flow freely, and no one pays for anything, seems to be withing reach.

But even a cursory glance at history (or YouTube for that matter) shows that the free exchange of art creates nothing but mediocrity, on a great and painful scale. It would be like turning over all of our cultural worth to the clawing, screeching, moaning masses of people who are sure they can win American Idol if someone would just listen.

What really drives artists with talent is the competition of the marketplace. In the end we all take our pigs to market with the hope to make money. If we replace the market with the town square, we'll go back to making furniture, while the truly talentless snatch at the microphone.

We cannot question ownership of property (intellectual or otherwise). That is not the baseline for the conversation. It must be a given or we throw out the underpinning of our civilization and chaos reins.

Otherwise, have fun watching the 12000th YouTube video of the baby laughing, or the cat scratching some guys balls, cause that is all that will be left.

Wil Z said...

And I dare anyone to string together a truly random half-hour collection of YouTube videos and come up with something even a 10th as entertaining as the worst episode of Littlest Hobo.

DMc said...

An excellent point and perspective, Wil. Thanks for that.

You know, one of the biggest nosestretchers that gets tossed around (because it also fits in with the idea of the great Marxist utopia) is that artists will continue to create art even if they don't get paid, because they have to, because it's inside them. Or something like that.

To which I say, "fuck you."

Y'know, it's hard enough negotiating the doubt and the rejection and the thousand other minefields to write -- but if I get to the point where I'm good, but I can't, even then, see the way clear to how I'll be renumerated, you better believe I'm done. I will go somewhere else or do something else. I'm smart and I've worked too hard.

Now I'm not enough of an ego to say that the world or the commons will suffer too much by my choice, but I can't imagine Aaron Sorkin or Alan Ball or Kari Lizer or Chuck Lorre or Larry David or Joss Whedon, Matt Weiner, David Chase, David Milch, Russell T. Davies, Shonda Rimes, David Shore or anybody else in TV doing this for free either. IT's hard. IT's a pain in the ass. There's easier ways to make money. Yeah there's satisfaction, sure. But take away the money?

The whole argument's so fucking ridiculous I can't even believe it's part of the discourse.

Ah interenet.

Geof said...

Wil Z writes, “a cursory glance at history (or YouTube for that matter) shows that the free exchange of art creates nothing but mediocrity, on a great and painful scale.”

No.

This suggests you do not know what the argument is about - or indeed what the Internet is about. The Internet is not about content. Let me repeat that: the Internet is not about content. It is about communication[1]. Community. Identity. Not content. As a matter of fact, content came late to the party.

Those videos that couldn’t even make it onto America’s Funniest? Their objective quality does not matter. Honestly. They might look like crap to you - and to me, and to 99.99% of the population. But to someone out there they are worthwhile. They are a labor of love or they are someone’s grandson dancing. Comparing them to network television is like comparing your baby girl’s finger painting to Cezanne: it completely misses the point.

What YouTube reveals is not that people have no taste or no talent. What it reveals is that they are possessed of a tremendous hunger to express themselves. To be creative. To be a part of their culture. What the Internet demonstrates every day is that what people want most of all is to communicate with others - with their friends, with their families, with communities real or imagined.

That is what copyfighters are. We are members of an imagined community with a shared culture. We share a sense of identity and of belonging. Most members of that community don’t even know what this copyright business is about. Some of us are jerks. Sorry about that, but we can no more kick them out than I can tell Denis he’s not Canadian anymore. Our particular community depends on a social and technical infrastructure - an infrastructure that, in large part, we built: an infrastructure that is threatened by the more extreme copyright proposals, and that is regularly hampered by some of the existing failings of the law. We are fighting to protect our community.

When you write that “Part of the problem is this pervasive feeling that ‘online’ is somehow an alternate reality with no real world consequence,” you get things backwards. Online is not separate reality or “cyberspace.” Online is part and parcel of how people live. It is no more separate from real life than are conversations on the telephone.

The real problem is precisely that online is not an alternate reality. Our society has built up a distinction between private and public a basis for law and in our social norms. Conflict has resulted when that boundary has been unclear: the role of women, same-sex marriage, kirpans in schools, and so on. Online the distinction is blurred - and because online is part of everyday life, the implications cannot be limited to the net. How this will be resolved I don’t know. Right now, many activities which participants see as more-or-less private (sharing mix tapes, videos of the grandkids, gossip) are also being treated as public. Someone posts a home movie to YouTube and you treat it as though it is published for public consumption.

[1] I just discovered “An anthropological introduction to YouTube” today (search for that phrase on YouTube to see the talk). It provides a decent explanation and illustration of what YouTube is really about. Incidentally, I would vastly prefer it to an episode of the Littlest Hobo.

Geof said...

My intent for the last sentence of my post is more like: "Someone posts a home movie to YouTube and you treat it as though it is a theatrical release."

DMc said...

Geof,
Them's a lot of pretty words, but once again, they're NOT RELEVANT TO THE SUBJECT HERE.

This is exactly what I'm talking about here. Do you know that not one NOT ONE single solitary "copyfighter" has sent me an email, or posted anything that shows a single, solitary scintilla of understanding about the issues I've been going over here over the last few days. Not one.

Which I boldly state, is not the slightest bit surprising. Because you don't get any of them.

Right now you're fighting, among other forces, corporate maximalists who want everything sewn up. Artists could be your allies in supporting what you want, because we could make the distinction between commercial and non-commercial uses and technologies. We could actually do something about entrenching the idea of professional works for profit and the kinds of communicative structures you talk about into the law.

Would it surprise you to know that the Writers Guild of Canada position on copyright makes just such a distinction? That, in fact, everything that you wax rhapsodic on -- not only do we understand it -- we would like to work in such a way so that you can continue to do it and not feel the draconian arm of the law on you?

It probably would, because in my scanning of Geist, and every "fair" copyright group -- I don't find anybody who seems to grasp it.

But instead of building on this opportunity, you guys have antagonized and chummed up the waters with careless rhetoric -- and that rhetoric plays into the hands of the maximalists.

For people who are so jazzed about their ability to communicate, you don't seem very capable of listening.

DMc said...

As to your added last point:

Who does this, Geof?

The Writers Guild of Canada?

Where do they do this?

That's not our position at all.

A poor grasp of the players, and a poor grasp of the fact that there are other people in the field with different, equally valid concerns and needs denies you the possibility of having allies who could help make a lot of the case for what you want.

We don't agree on everything, but we might agree on enough to be able to get some positive change through. And if you actually took the time to stop railing blindly and educate yourself a bit, you might find out that where we differ isn't where you think we differ, and where we do differ, there's good reasons for that, and maybe even a compromise that could provide a way forward.

But instead, you guys want to box anybody who's trying to earn a living in the same category as multinational record companies. And you say that we're all trying to stamp out the kind of communication you want to experience on YouTube.

We're not. That's just not true. And by thinking that way, you invite the defeat of the principles you hold dear.

A mob is powerful force, but it's by necessity, dumb. You could choose to be strategic. But so far, you've opted for the mob. And that's where and why you're going to lose.

MR said...

My cable bill certainly wouldn't be any less if the shows were all public domain - the cost of the show after its first couple of windows is negligible.

What is this debate really about?


Copyright is to encourage new works in order to enrich Canadian culture. That's the only purpose - to enrich our society with works of art. Period. In return we, as Society, allow the creator to 'monotize' the work for a short period. It's supposed to be a win-win proposition.

Once the term has expired and regardless of the economic value of the work - it now belongs to all Canadians.

My concern, is twofold:
1) the industry (money men - not the artist) continues to suppress the works from entering the public domain by constantly lengthining the term; and
2) the industry does this to all works regardless of economic value.

The danger is that works of zero 'economic value' (to the industry) won't be preserved and will be lost forever.

It's happening now as we discover that television and film works from the 50's and 60's weren't preserved. These vaults cost money so one can't blame the businessmen for only preserving works of value (to them) from those bygone eras.

I'm limiting this discussion to works in the TV and film industry to stay on topic with this blog. But this danger applies to all creations.

The only good thing about these internet pirates from my perspective is that all these downloaded works are being preserved in a left handed way. Once on the internet - it can't be taken back. It's out there forever and backed up countless ways.

Let me be clear - I am not advocating free range copyright infringement. We must find a balance.

MR said...

Oh, boy.

Let me stress again - I'm not advocating copyright infringement.

We need to ensure creators have the necessary incentives to create.

PS said...

*sigh*

You're 100% right, DM.

This argument gives me headaches and bores me at the same time because I feel as though I'm asking a child to behave.

The distributor who wons the rights (whether that's a company or the artist themselves) ought to be able to control the dissemination of a work. Period. Book, song, tv show, whatever. That's their right. They paid for it. If you upload a digital copy to a website or download said copy from someone/somewhere else then you - are - a - thief. Deal with it. Don't make excuses. You stole it, sure as if you walked into HMV and took it off the shelves. Someone had the licenced right to control the sale of that item and you circumvented them.

It's wrong.

Just 'cause it's easy to obtain it for free, doesn't make it right.

If you don't like the distributor's price, then DON'T BUY IT. But if you choose to steal it, don't try to justify it with statements on supply and demand and unreasonable copyright.

I'm sick and tired of the argument that the folk who control distribution are the bad guys and need to come up with a new business model for the digital age and should stop hounding file sharers. STFU. Come up with a business model that works and THEN we can talk. Until then, either pay for the damn thing, skip it or embrace the fact that you're ok with spitting in someone's face.

I think it's beyond sad that we've got an entire generation growing up that thinks that they have a RIGHT to whatever entertainment they want for free. WTF...?

(BTW, the whole idea of filesharing etc pretty much stems from the US Supreme Court ruling re: the Betamax and the notion of "Fair Use". I encourage anyone who is involved in this debate to find the ruling online and read it. The VCR exists thanks to ONE vote - and the argument for it is so ridculously flawed in its perception of future use that it is laughable. Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful the VCR exists, but the judges' view of what people would do with it - and the file-sharing technology that would follow - is beyond naive.)

Geof said...

Denis writes, "As to your added last point: Who does this, Geof?"

Wil Z. My post is a response to his. He is the "you." My final sentence illustrates that his error about the blurring of private and public leads to his misunderstanding of YouTube.

Please do not read what I have not written. I did not accuse you of doing anything to stamp out communication. I am well aware that you do not support the extreme copyright policies I referred to. Just as you are trying to explain what it is you wish to protect, I am doing the same thing. Wil Z's comment dismissed us and what we are fighting for, effectively calling us "clawing, screeching, moaning masses."

As to working together where we agree: I agree. For goodness sake, I was at the Vancouver Roundtable where Charles Lazer spoke about the WGC position. I wrote you an email in which I said I am not necessarily opposed to a levy scheme, but laid out some reservations. I welcome any response.

DMc said...

Brings it back to my concept of framing. Wil is a smart guy. I'm sure he wouldn't actually object to any of the points you make about communication.

He was speaking about those videos in a different context than you were.

The difference, so far as I see it? Most artists can speak quite intelligently about the differences between art output for commercial exploitation, or other forms of "professional art," as opposed to the participatory media you outlined in your comment.

The reverse, however, is not true. You are being disingenuous when you say, "all you want to do is communicate and protect the right to do that, etc, etc." That might be your view personally, but time and again there is an organized conflation in the "copyfighter" camp that does not simply seek to reserve the right to free, non-commercial expression, but who believes that that expression should include as much currently protected material as the person wants. I'm not talking about the radio on in the BG of a YouTube clip. I'm talking about repurposing or mashing to create a new work. I'm talking out and out infringement.

Writers every day face the prospect of a poor understanding of what they do. I am constantly -- and my story is not unique -- being told by people that they have a great idea for a screenplay or a novel. There seems to be a feeling that the idea is all, and ideas are easy -- we all have them, and we all can write in one way or another.

Except, of course, it's not that simple. Execution of an idea is all. In fact, copyrighting an idea is not possible. Only the fixed form of that idea is.

Geof, the thing is that your distinctions here fail the basic test of logic. If, as you say, it was only about communication and expression between amateur non professionals, then why would you think any artist, or art organization would stand against you? Why would they do that?

They do it because wrapped up in that little rhetoric, when you scratch under the surface, is a demand to be able to flout professional works, to, in fact, reduce them to the same level of such communication. You can express yourself in a novel, big deal, I can do the same on YouTube, and oh, I should be able to do it using your novel if I want.

If you don't recognize this as the basis to what would otherwise be a ludicrous opposition to harmless behavior, then you're either being disingenuous, or very very naive.

DMc said...

I should add that with the mashing or repurposing, I am not opposed to that either. I'm opposed to the idea that you should be able to do it for free.

There are exceptions with fair dealing, if you are trying to make a satirical point through parody. There the value is truly societal, and might include many of the YouTube like communication videos you speak of.

But if you're creating a new work from pieces of my old one, and making money from its distribution, you shouldn't be able to do it for free.

MR said...

I think it's beyond sad that we've got an entire generation growing up that thinks that they have a RIGHT to whatever entertainment they want for free. WTF...?

PS,

It may be because they now realise that it will never be free. I dunno.

Pick any Canadian made TV production airing today and assure me that it will be made available to our descendants for FREE at some later date.

You can't.

If it's worth anything - your industry has shown it's able to keep extending the copyright on it.

Or, you didn't bother preserving it because it had ZERO economic value to YOU.

What we need is some way to allow works to enter the public domain once you've exhausted it's economic value. That could be 5, 10, 20 years or longer down the road. The only way I can think of doing that would be to require you to renew your rights periodically.

Without that nuance we'll lose most works.

Today, *every* single thing ever created by the Canadian TV industry remains under lock and key.

And you dare call others "thief".

Where's the balance?

Wil Z said...

Well then "Geof," allow me to respond. If we look past your condescending attitude and the quaint Amish imagery of this wonderful community you've built with your own sweat and blood, we will see that you're the one intentionally blurring the public/private divide. I have no qualms with anyone that wants to share and watch little Billy's Bar Mitzvah, even if they wish to do so in an entirely public and unrestricted way. It is a way to build community (although it's a very thin community in the above example).

But even you have made the distinction between professional content, public content, and private content. What you fail to admit is that professionally produced art is a major force in the creation of community and culture. In fact, your little social experiment of warmed over and misunderstood McLuhan theory could not exist without it.

Professional content is created for two reasons: 1) consumers are willing to pay to see it, or 2) advertisers are willing to pay to attach their message to it, while it commands your attention.

Here's the kicker, Goef, old buddy: Google did not pay $1.6 billion for YouTube out of the goodness of their hearts. They are looking for a way to deliver your eyeballs to their advertisers. Problem is, advertisers don't want to be associated with most of the content because it is either stolen or ridiculous. Google with either figure out an algorithm that will target the acceptable content, or they will convince advertisers of a new paradigm.

Let's play out a scenario if your foolhardy copyfight succeeds. Google could target that publicly displayed video of Billy's Bar Mitzvah and digitally replace all the cans of Pepsi on the tables with cans of Coke. By the time you've pulled your head out of your ass and called your lawyer, it will be too late. You've managed to strip away all claims.

If there is no ownership of property, then there is no ownership and privacy will be the next pillar to tumble.

MR said...

You writers should play a larger role in the Canadian TV industry. Denis keeps trying to keep us on topic. That being. Show us writers a business model that's viable today and in the future.

We can't because copyright is the least your problems. It's a side issue in which a levy plays a small role. It's not going to give us a Canadian made show airing on CTV Thursday at 9:00pm EST against CBS's CSI no matter what your residuals are.

I'm not even sure that doing away with simsub and forcing licencees to match dollar for dollar what they spend on foreign productions will do it either. But, I'm willing to take that leap of faith.

I do feel that local TV died because of boardroom decisions in Toronto and not because we don't have the writing talent, or the actors, directors, editors, cameramen, etc... to make good television. You guys were simply never given a chance.

This is more a CRTC CanCon and broadcast licensing issue than anything else.

I will to tell you though that I'm not the only one watching a Canadian made shoestring budgeted new media production out on the internet with little or no onerous copyright terms attached. And, you TV professionals can keep laughing at us all you want. But when our only alternative is watching American Idol - will you still be laughing then?

Laurie said...

I will to tell you though that I'm not the only one watching a Canadian made shoestring budgeted new media production out on the internet with little or no onerous copyright terms attached. And, you TV professionals can keep laughing at us all you want. But when our only alternative is watching American Idol - will you still be laughing then?

It's great that you're watching these productions. I hope you watch lots more.

In fact, what I'd like to see you do is not only watch those productions, but boycott the ones that are offered under copyright laws you don't like.

When enough people do that, real change might happen.

But as long as we live in a society with some supply and demand, and demand is being shown for some productions far more than others, that gives them value. Real $$$ value. That's the way a free market works. (as people have pointed out, if you want to go all Marxist, that would be okay with most artists, but do you...)

It's unlikely we'll "lose" things now that everything can be stored so cheaply. That's no longer an issue, really. This "lock and key" you talk about is really a non-issue. To play with someone else's creation you have to talk to them, that's all. It's not completely out of the question.

Besides, it's kind of like saying we have the right to take antiquities from other cultures because we'll treat them better. We did once feel that way, but now it's kind of icky.

Someone in this thread described the online world as a new community, a new culture, an in many ways that's true, but it often acts more like old-fashioned colonizers moving into areas new to them with no regard at all for the culture that was already there.

I'm mostly in the book business (and I should put in a plug for my new novel, Swap out this week!) and one author recently had this to say about the Google Books "settlement:"

“I don’t want to ’settle’ with Google: I didn’t enter into negotiations with them to start with. I think the whole thing is a really terrible precedent.”

I just think if people complaining about copyright were forced into a "settlement" about something they'd never even entered into negotiations about to begin with, they'd have a different view.

Geof said...

Wil Z, I have argued in the past that “professionally produced art is a major force in the creation of community and culture.” I believe that is why culture matters, and thus is the ultimate justification for copyright. But that potential cannot be realized unless people participate around and through it. That is the whole point of my argument. Maybe you don’t see that because you agree with Denis when he talks about how I want to “reduce” art to the level of communication. That isn’t reducing it at all. It is realizing it, giving it meaning, giving it value.

I suspect you disagree with that. Fine. But you are trying to force me into a fictional narrative when you invent stories about what I’m fighting for. You are creating disagreements out of thin air. I have made no proposal here that would lead to the outcome you describe. I don’t believe I have made any proposals in this discussion at all. You are not listening to me. You are not arguing with me. You are throwing around silly McLuhan references as if I claimed it is the Internet’s essential nature that “ideas want to be free” (yes, I know the other half of that quote). You are even implying I am not me by quoting my name. (Try typing it into Google.) You are doing precisely what Denis accuses copyfighters of doing with respect to his profession.

Geof said...

Denis, you claim I am being disingenuous. You seem to want me to apologize for views I do not hold simply because you perceive an “organized conflation in the ‘copyfighter’ camp” - some kind of conspiracy to abolish copyright.

Look. I was involved in founding a local group. To my knowledge, no-one in our group has proposed abolishing copyright. No one in our group has suggested artists should not be paid for commercial use. Not one. Not in person, not online. On the contrary, in one meeting an artist said he depended on copyright to make a living. In another, a software developer outlined his losses to infringement. We do argue for broader fair dealing and for legalizing remixes and mash-ups. You and I have differences of opinion on that score. I’m not dwelling on our differences because don’t see any reason they should stop us from trying to work together where we agree.

If the discussion you want to hold is not really with me - if it is really an argument with someone else, if you want me to disown my views based on the associations you perceive (despite your ultimatum that if you don’t get the validation you want from the copyfighter camp you will go with the corporations you disagree with) - well then, I don’t know what to say. I don’t write about copyright to get something off my chest or because it makes me feel good. I write with the hopes of improving the situation. Bitter arguments are worse than nothing.

Geof said...

Laurie writes, “it often acts more like old-fashioned colonizers moving into areas new to them with no regard at all for the culture that was already there.”

Thank you for a coherent post. The funny thing is, I see the same thing. My culture surrounds me every day. People like me give it meaning and value. But we are being told it’s not our culture. We can look - often we have no choice but to look (or to listen: to advertising, pervasive music, television) - but we can’t touch. We have been colonized by our own culture.

I recently attended a presentation about some of these issues my some local artists. One of them was native. He had taken the Coca-Cola logo and replaced the text: it read “Enjoy Coast-Salish Territory.” He was taken aback to discover that Canadian law has no exemption for this.

MR said...

It's unlikely we'll "lose" things now that everything can be stored so cheaply. That's no longer an issue, really. This "lock and key" you talk about is really a non-issue. To play with someone else's creation you have to talk to them, that's all. It's not completely out of the question.

Alright, I'll take a leap of faith and trust that in another 50 years or so we'll be inundated by Canadian made TV productions from the 50's.

I was hoping the TV writers of Canada would see the lunacy of hiding their works from the public. After all, if a tree falls in the forest and there's no one there to hear it...whatever.

The tell you honestly, if I had a choice between a tax refund or investing that refund in the CBC. I'd give it to the CBC. I'm not a CBC fanboy but when I want to see Canadian productions - I need to go there.

The private broadcasters have killed themselves. They'll last as long as simsub does. Right now, they think specialty channels are the answer. It isn't. They're pricing themselves out of reach of more and more Canadians with every hike in rates.

I'd love to see a CBC2 and CBC3 themed based offering similar to what the BBC does in the UK.

The saddest thing though is that these guys believe we're illegally downloading their works and not City Homicide (AUS), Torchwood (UK), Wallander (UK), Being Human (UK), etc...

DMc said...

When you stop to make a speech, people put you into categories. Geof, if I've misrepresented the nuance of your views, I'm sorry. You have me at a disadvantage, you see. You've read my take, and I have only your comments to go on. When you walk talk like a duck, as the man says, don't be surprised when someone calls you a quacker.

MR - you want to bounce and bounce and bounce around; four years of writing about the structural issues at play in the industry in this country mean I'm not exactly blind to some of the other shortcomings you throw out.

But here, you see, the subject was -- and is -- roses. The question of whether copyright is the biggest fight facing Canadian artists or television types right now isn't up for discussion; it's the subject at hand. And seeing as the subject at hand is complex enough, muddying the waters by bringing in the kitchen sink just isn't helpful.

For artists, it starts and ends with the business model.

You seem most bent out of shape about length of copyright terms. I agree completely that the artificial extension of copyright to works for hire -- which started in the U.S., is counter the public interest. I would certainly support rolling that back.

You may also feel that artists shouldn't be concerned about the sales they're losing to piracy. Respectfully, that's just not your call.

Combining a demand for all sorts of consumer rights with a serious degradation of the length of term PLUS only vague discussion of the business model equals an unwillingness by the people who have the most to lose to engage into that discussion.

There's plenty far I'm willing to go to swing the pendulum back from the corporate copyright owners to the consumer. If I didn't also have to fight the idiots who somehow think I should be happy to create for free, or the people who don't think I have a right to benefit from my labor at all, then maybe shorter fucking terms might be something I could study. But for now, I'm only willing to go back to fifty. And the reason is that there are so many fucking wingnuts who have so little understanding of the POV of the people with the most to lose that it's poisoned the well of discourse, and made some very big and greedy corporations look not as bad in our eyes. That's not a victory for the smug. It's a PR disaster.

And for the new point you've ping ponged to in your last couple comments -- you're not even correct. Corner Gas, The Border, Being Erica, Flashpoint are all shows that have a significant amount of illegal downloading going on. I've seen Canadian numbers -- and they are, in fact, at a level where you could only conclude that there is a noticeable effect on other channels of distribution, whether it be legal streaming on the Cdn Netork sites, Itunes sales, or, in the case of The Border, Erica, Flashpoint, and Gas -- DVD sales.

Your back catalogue and vault torque is a bit of handy revisionism, too. It's not that corporations or even the CBC are purposely destroying or keeping TV history away -- you now are putting 21st century spin on the thinking of a different era. Tapes that were wiped or destroyed were not done so out of malice toward the public, but through a failure of imagination at the time -- at the BBC, major networks like NBC, CBS, ABC and yes, CBC - thinking that anyone would want to preserve the majority of this material even for curiousity value, never mind possible future commercial exploitation.

Because that was never considered, yup, there are challenges now in making the material available. CBC archives is slowly trying, but again, it's one more thing the public wants the CBC to do with the 34 dollars a year it gets from each Canadian.

Seeing conspiracy or even malice in it -- besides, again, being off point -- is to misunderstand the historical and cultural context of the times.

DMc said...

BTW comments moderation is now on for the weekend. I would like to be able to step away for awhile.

Blaise Alleyne said...

DMc,

I've read most of the post, but no, I'm not going to spend my entire weekend pouring over your long-winded rants. Every time you leave so much as a comment, it's another 200 words -- sorry if I can't keep up.

And thanks for responding to my argument... You threw a couple ad hominem attacks, and swore a little, but said virtually nothing about the substance of my comment.

Except that it was the "least relevant" part of the discussion.

If arguing that basing any kind of business model on copying puts you on shaky economic ground isn't relevant, I'm not sure what is.

You said "the value proposition is music is gone" -- yet tons of people are figuring out how to build new businesses around music. If that doesn't raise questions about your perspective...

Is the value proposition in music gone? Or is it possible that there's value beyond copyright? If you can't discern real value... remind me why I should waste anymore time here than I already have?

This will be my last comment, unless by some miracle your response is civil.

DMc said...

Hey Blaine,
You could easily have read through the posts here...from me, from other writers, and have posted something that said, 'hey, wow, I don't agree with you on some fundamental issues, but hey, I see why you're saying what you're saying."

Or a derivation of that. Your words.

But you didn't.

There's a fundamental disconnect here. You're arguing an intellectual principal; I, and others who do what I do, are trying to figure out whether we can continue to make a living at that which we've tried to establish as our life's work.

I have no rancour for you. It's merely my hope that, in whatever path you wind up in, that you oneday face the abject terror that the callousness of the desperately misnamed "fair copyright" side, has engendered in artists.

You started by saying that you didn't have time to read the full post, but still felt qualified to deliver your opinion. I hate to pull the generation card, but from where I sit, that's the whole problem right there.

I have tried to point out, five, six, seven times, that the example of music -- where you and your cohorts feel comfortable -- break down when it comes to TV and film.

There are thousands of films already that receive no distribution, each year, under the old system.

but you know, at least they took a risk.

You take away the mechanism to take the risk and leave nothing in its place. I have no tears for your hurt feelings. You are naive, and one day, when you are wiser, you will look back on what you argued these days, and you will feel shame.

Of that I am sure. History will tell. I wonder what I will be doing then?

MR said...

you want to bounce and bounce and bounce around; four years of writing about the structural issues at play in the industry in this country mean I'm not exactly blind to some of the other shortcomings you throw out.

It's for that very reason I appreciate the time you've taken to address my naiveté. The WGC's position on copyright reflects your membership. A wide range of views, the consensus of which is reflected in your submission. Yours is but one part of a larger collaborative effort. Actors, directors, and many others are needed to create your work. I get it now.

To recap, as we have bounced around past 45+ posts:

We tell you that this generation knows your content will never be free. To say otherwise is a lie. Repeating this lie will not make it true.

The response - a levy will minimize the pain and allow our kids to get away with it a little longer.

Yes, it will. A viable business model it ain't.

Meanwhile, my generation who still respects your right to earn a living; we ask "Is there not some way we can allow works of no economic value to pass into the public domain earlier?"

The response - nope. We need to follow Hollywood's lead. Everything must remain under copyright. Too much effort in renewing rights periodically. No distinct Canadian solution is possible.

A shame as I had dared dream of a uniquely Canadian solution that went farther than a levy. Something that acknowledged that a majority of your works are of little if any economic value past 20 years. Please do not equate 'economic' value with 'aesthetic' value. The intent is not to disparage your works. But I see now that your hands are tied on this matter.

What of the works we've already lost?

Response. We didn't know this stuff mattered. Don't really care. Go see Bob in accounting or, the US networks!

No one thought it mattered. It was the new media of it's time. Back then cinema was going to die. After all, who was going to pay to watch a movie when they could be entertained for *free* on the telly! This doesn't change the fact that our descendants 100 years from now will be unable to experience early Canadian made television. It's been lost forever. Moving on...

How about a more direct contribution from a TV production copyright holder to fund new art. Perhaps, 10% of the copyright proceeds diverted into a TV fund.

Response. Silence. Or, maybe it was - that's thinking too far out of the box. Big media wouldn't allow it in any event. Drink our Kool-Aid (levy) or suffer the consequences of a three-strike rule, DRM, lawsuits, etc... You dirty commie!

We tell you that obscurity is your greatest problem. Not the kids downloading.

Response. Flashpoint is downloaded a lot. That's has to be taking money directly out of my wallet. You see, I went to bed last night with 10 bucks. Some kid downloaded my show while I slept. Got up this morning to an empty wallet. The fallacy of this line of thought is stunning. Although, I realize even you don't really believe that either.

I'd hoped for more.

My intent is not to purposely mis characterize the WGC's position on copyright. I may have missed a post or failed to comprehend a point. I also appreciate more fully the repercussions your levy proposal will have in Hollywood. Essentially, our TV industry is not healthy enough to stray too far from Hollywood's position. I get it now.

I'd like to thank you again for having taken the time to better explain your membership's position on copyright to an average joe like me. All the best.

Marc

John McFetridge said...

It's true this has gone about as far as it can, but I just wanted to respond to Geof's: My culture surrounds me every day. People like me give it meaning and value. But we are being told it’s not our culture. We can look - often we have no choice but to look (or to listen: to advertising, pervasive music, television) - but we can’t touch. We have been colonized by our own culture.

Really? You can't touch it? You can't even ask if you can touch it? Like I said, there's a new version of The Prisoner coming out I'm looking forward to, so someone figured out how to touch it.

It's kind of like saying you're not allowd to practise law because you haven't gone to law school and passed the bar exam - or medicine or engineering or other profession.

The arts also have a kind of bar exam that keeps some people out. I know that annoys people. It annoys me, too, but you can work with it the same way you can work with the bar exam. Not everyone gets into law school and not everyone passes the exam. Sometimes I wish more eas being done to help open up all profssions, not just the arts.

Still, I have heard lots of people online say that their creativity is restricted by copyright, but I have never heard that from any of my fellow writers.

Maybe it would be esier for me if I could just write sequels to Elmore Leonard novels (I get compared to him a lot in reviews as it is and he's certainly a big influence on me) but I sure don't feel restricted in any way that I actually have to create my own characters.

Maybe mash-ups are fantastic art that we're being denied - although there do seem to be plenty that have been made legally, so someone's figured it out.

It seems this whole issue is really about acquring artwork, not creating it.

I still think that the current point where money changes hands - the internet connection - is where the revenue will be divided up. It means places like Bell and Rogers will have even more say about what gets made because they'll control all the purse strings (well, really just that one purse string, the only point at which people are willing to pay for their content), but there you go. Buy shares, they'll be the biggest beneficiaries of all this.

DMc said...

...even as they fight it every single step of the way.

"We're a dumb pipe..."

--except when we're shaping your traffic...

"It's a tax on consumers..."

--except when the CRTC says that it should be absorbed as part of the costs of doing business.

"Why should we have to pony something up?"

--As we sell our services based on download speeds that are far beyond anything you need for any purpose other than downloading or streaming video.

--As we declare profits up hundreds of percent from just a few years ago.

--As we feel we have no responsibility to give back to the communities we use to sell our services on.

--As we charge system access fees and text messaging with 4900% markups, and ringtones and plans that are among the worst and least competitive in the world.

Great system we've got here. It surely is.

PS said...

MR seems to be missing my point. I never said it would ever be free. Why should it? The distribution rights holder can determine whether or not a tv show will be made available for free. That's their right. They paid for it. Why does it ever need to be free? If someone wants to watch it (even 50 years down the line), it clearly has value.

Again, if you don't like the cost, don't buy.

If you think that's a ridiculous business model and the company in question will go bankrupt from people not paying to be entertained, then LET THEM GO BANKRUPT. You still don't have a "right" to that entertainment.

If someone has the right to sell something but you take it for free, that's theft.

John McFetridge said...

If someone wants to watch it (even 50 years down the line), it clearly has value.

Yes, this is classic, free-market supply and demand. I like it. The demand is what sets the value. Benn working for a long time.

But I could live with the Marxist, "once it's online it's available to everyone," or, I guess you could say, "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs," if everything else goes Marxist, too, but somehow I don't think that's what people want ;).

MR said...

MR seems to be missing my point. I never said it would ever be free. Why should it? The distribution rights holder can determine whether or not a tv show will be made available for free. That's their right. They paid for it. Why does it ever need to be free? If someone wants to watch it (even 50 years down the line), it clearly has value.

PS, it needs to be accessible to all segments of society regardless of economic means. We do this in healt care and education. We do this for public works such as roadways and dams. We do this not because it serves you. We do it because it serves the public good. That's the whole point - the public good. Nothing in polite society can exist otherwise.

A copyright assignment is temporary and a recognition by society that some incentive is needed to encourage the creation of works. Your distributor, or publisher, or agent has no say in this. If it wasn't for copyright - they would be the first take your work!

This is simply an agreement between yourself, as a creator, and your fellow citizens. It's artificial. A complete fabrication as there is no natural way in the real world to control thought, imagination, creativity or, inspiration. It's a compromise, an accommodation.

If your fellow citizens are never going to be given an opportunity to be exposed to your work freely. It will have served no public good and therefore, does not warrant any protection to begin with.

This has nothing to do with past, present, or future business models.

Ryan said...

The $50 million TV series might be on the way out, going the way of the movie serial. So demanding only answers that can preserve that particular type of media is, I think, where you're rubbing some people wrong.

That said, you could at least tell a guy who wrote movie serials something like, "TV is the next big thing. They broadcast the shows for free, but they get paid by the advertisers." You can still explain where the money's coming from.

I only need so many T-shirts. Battlestar Galactica: Great show, I bought DVDs, but would not buy the shirt. Unless some of these shows start selling their own lines of soap and breakfast cereal, living off of swag is not going to work.

I'm skeptical of the value of a levy since I've seen the CPCC get a music levy and then distribute the money based on how much the track gets played on the *radio.*

DMc said...

And so here we come, I think, full circle -- the guy who says the business model is irrelevant is someone who doesn't have to worry about the business model.

The guy who (along with all his copyright-holdin pals) says, "well, it's important to me, and if you can't see or respect that little distinction, and you couple it with all you many demands, I get nervous and a whole lot more likely to throw in with the copyright maximalists."

And the Conservatives, who are in no way disposed toward the hippy socialist talk, see the DCMA types as reasonable and the "no copyright ever! burn down the system" types and lump you in with the pirates, and lo and behold, you get none of what you want.

So by thumbing your nose at the holders of copyright that aren't big corporations, you seal the deal for them getting what they want.

I guess you get to be right, having not listened to a word I apparently typed, and I hope that's comfort to you while you and all the culture remixers are getting your asses sued, like, forever.

And with that -- considering that if I read back and we haven't really had anything new for a dozen comments or so, I'm closing the thread.

Cause, um, it's my blog. And under current copyright rules, I own your asses -- and everything you said here and can do whatever I want with it!

Bwaaahaahahahahahhahaahhaha!

Peace out! See you on the Iggy side!