WEINMAN'S GONE sideways off my little fanfic (shudder) rant:
I certainly don't think most fanfic -- including my own occasional attempts -- is very good, though I will say that I have seen plenty of fanfic that is no worse than the average spec script for the same show.
But here's a question: can you name any actual good fanfic? That is, fan fiction you think qualifies as good storytelling in and of itself?
I sometimes think that could apply to some of the stories at the Batgirl Bat-Trap Homepage. Though it seems to be part of a fetish site (about Batgirl being tied up and the like), and though the prose in the fanfic is kind of over-ripe sometimes, some of the stories aren't bad. And if you read enough of them it really does, in a weird way, come to feel like the author has enriched and expanded the '60s Batman universe for the better. It helps that the author has, instead of just writing straight-up Batman stories, writes stories focusing on an under-used character (Batgirl) and creates a new universe of characters to back her up, even while the main characters of the original show still have a lot to do.
I'd be lying if I said I wasn't going to check back and see if anybody comes up with anything. And Weinman's example sounds kind of neat. But there, nestled right there -- are the warning bells: overripe prose, and the weird, slightly fetishy sheen. That's exactly the thing that makes one feel skeevy about fanfic.
But there's something else -- something that perhaps got lost in my ranty goodness, and which was picked up by a commenter on the original thread. Something that Weinman twigged me to again when he writes, "Some of the stories aren't bad."
Stories are hard.
They really are. I was on the phone today talking to a friend about the series he's on and the problems of breaking story and what a story is and isn't...(hint, it's not and then this happens, and then this happens -- not unless those things build upon each other and go somewhere.)
After the conversation a sentence popped into my head. I don't know if this is my own brainpan or if I read it somewhere, but here goes:
Comedy is surprise piled on surprise.
Drama is inevitability piled upon inevitability.
Coming up with the surprises is hard. That's why most comedy is lame.
Coming up with story events that seem like inevitability only in retrospect (ie: the audience doesn't figure it out too soon or see it coming) is hard. That's why most dramas fail to fully engage you.
Someone who can come up with even a "pretty good story" is someone who should be trying to write for real. I can't for the life of me figure out why such a precious resource (everybody thinks they can tell a story, so few actually can) should be wasted writing material that's just derivative of other writers' work.
We all are inspired by what came before. "Good" fanfic -- if such a beast truly exists (I'm still not convinced it does) -- is a short circuit and an evolutionary dead end. If you actually can write -- the hard part's past. I want to see what you can come up with on your own. Hell, all first novels are autobiographical and frequently a little derivative. But that's how you grow.
A good writer writing fanfic -- that, to me, is not just weird. It's a tragic waste. Talent is too precious a commodity to blow it off writing stories about Cameron and House fucking.
Oh, and judging by the statcounter, the fanfictotums have found me. Pray for me.
23 rumbles:
Excuse my ignorence but what's a fanfric?
You pinpointed the thing that makes me uncomfortable about fanfic. Why don't good fanfic writers write something original and good? My guess is that it's a matter of self-esteem. Takes a lot of courage to come up with original stuff, put your heart into it and show it to other people.
At least when writing a derivative of something else, you're not putting as much at risk and take part in a community that will possibly boost your self-esteem.
Here's a notion:
What if fanfic (to some) is like blogging for others?
I wonder aloud only because I once came across (sort of by accident) the fanfic from a scifi series written by someone I knew. It was a little weird because it was slash hardcore gay fanfic between the two leads. Now this person, she wasn't a 'fiction writer' by profession, but a copywriter for gov't trade publications and press releases. And judging from her dayjob work and from her fanfic, she was a decent writer.
And she was writing a scifi novel in her spare time, which she eventually finished it (though I'm not sure if it was published).
Now I won't get into the slash hardcore gay element (as in never really 'got' that part), but as for the fanfic itself...it was her version of blogging. She was a big fan of this show, and liked posting on the boards about it (I think she even ran one), and the fanfic was like a fun outlet to express herself creatively without having to do all the 'hard work' since the characters and the overall throughline were already in place (from the actual tv series).
I'm not sure if that makes any sense, but it was how something that made no sense to me was justified.
Be careful of those crazy fanfictotums. They could come after you, and it would be like the time that Tony and Janice finally slept together, and Tony confessed about his true self and talked about how the real reason he had brought Christopher up so fast was that he was in love with him, and Big Pussy came back (he wasn't really dead all this time) and their was this big gunfight and Uncle Junior was running around with two gunz (John Woo-style) totally kicking ass and everyone died except for Meadow and me. But she wasn't really annoying, she just shut up and we lived together. And she was still hot like back in Season 3.
That makes total sense to me, Will, and it's not the actual fanfic that bugs me (as long as I don't read it!). What makes me feel some contempt for the whole area is the attitude of the vocal minority who post lists of every instance the writers of the show have "stolen" ideas from fanfic, and ways in which fanfic writers have a better grasp of the show and characters. All while writing stories that, to quote DMc, make the baby Jesus cry.
I'm with Diane. I could care less whether somebody writes a story. (As I said in the original post, the "moral argument" is one that I don't concern myself with.)
In the example you cite there's nothing wrong with it (aside from, I'm sorry, it being a little weird, which you seem to acknowledge.) The problem is that it doesn't stop there.
The fanfic writers don't clean their own house, and the stuff that Diane talks about (and I'm sorry Diane, but I don't think its a vocal minority) is the thing that puts the stink on it. Those people simply cannot be taken seriously. They've left the fucking planet of creativity.
It's hard enough for writers to get respect for what they do. Every cab driver that's ever asked me what I do has said, "they should come to me for stories."
He may be right, for all I know. But I'm betting he's not. Deluded amateurs can be amusedly tolerated -- but the ones with attitude? Fuckem.
Will makes a good point about the benevolent fanfickers, comparing it to bloggers.
Someone in my writing workshop said that she didn't understand why I didn't make money off of writing, since I spend a good amount of time making blog entries. People would have an interest in my writing.
My answering: the effort put into marketing the writing and finding markets for it. Not to say I'm lazy (which I can be, but that's not the point), it takes some work to sell the writing and yourself. And for someone who isn't independently wealthy, have networking base or necessarily the material or clips (with a short story and novel in the works), getting the freelance writing thing doesn't exactly come easy.
So yeah, for someone without the resources (which could include the day-to-day emotional energy), benevolent fanfic can make pretty good sense.
Self-righteous fans on the other hand. . ..
Fanfiction is a hobby. Hobbies, by definition are pastimes that waste time, are largely pointless, pursued for pleasure or relaxation and are never done professionally.
I don't see anyone all up at arms over stamp collectors, and how they are not really postal workers. Fanfiction writers know they aren't professionals, they just get offended when you call them crap hobbyists.
People in the fashion industry aren't offended by people who knit, or sew handbags or make paper mache hats, nor do they spend any of their time whining about how people with these hobbies aren't really in the fashion industry.
Fanfiction is often a learning tool, and can be used by underdeveloped writers to learn about things like character development, plot, voice, continuity and the editing process but it's not really nessicary to learn these things.
Fanfiction is also illegal. It defies copyright laws by definition. Just like it is illegal to drink underage, to j-walk, or to have a bonfire in your backyard. Is fanfiction dangerous then? Maybe. It has it's dangers. But for some people it is their only creative output, why do you want to take that away from them?
They don't want to write original fiction, if they did, they would. Nobody is forcing them to spend their time writing Ham (House/Cameron) porn. It's just want they want to be doing with their free time. Better than pissing it all away watching reruns of Survivor or the CNN news reel on loop or some shite.
A lot of fanfiction sucks, a lot of it is pretty good. If you are into that kind of thing. I'm guessing you're not.
It's fun. Just for fun.
Leave fanfiction writers alone. Just like you leave bingo enthusiasts, woodworkers, model ship builders, kite flying societies, foreign TV subbers, RPGers and card collectors alone.
We've really got to go round the mulberry bush about this again, huh?
Okay. Here. Go read Doris Egan's Livejournal
Last week she wrote a wonderful episode of HOUSE. Now she's being EXTREMELY diplomatic as she responds to the "harmless" fans who basically are accusing her -- a professional writer, of lifting from fanfic writers.
This took no time at all. This is one case of many. This is the very delusional behavior I was talking about.
This kind of thing is rife in your "just for fun" community. It's not fun. It's pretty fucking serious. It's the worst thing you can say to a writer. And it's a load of bullshit.
None of the other hobbies you cite has this kind of analogue.
It's indefensible, fantastical thinking. And should be stomped and derided. And any fanfic writer who turns around and says, so and so, working their asses off on a series, stole from their badly spelled story? Well...they should get their asses sued off for libel and -- oh snap -- copyright infringement too.
Then let's see what's "harmless."
I really try to stay out of these discussions usually, but -
What you are saying is, without fanfiction, there would be no crazy people on the Internet?
Just a question: if I'm not mistaken during the Xena series did the creators not pluck a fanfic writer from that world into writing two episodes of the show in it's (I believe) final season? Her work online as I seem to remember was mostly focused on Uber versions of the familar lead characters.
I do agree much of it is terrible but I have also found that fanfic communities also do help market shows or keep enthusiam going for a show when perhaps it's on a down swing or the like.
I'm coming to this discussion late and have no idea the drama involved but I thought I would toss in the above info since you inquired.
Enjoying the heck out of this blog
chele
That just doesn't make sense, Nadia.
It's an odd one this. Like many others, I have read fanfic which is at least as good as some published material (even if such work is indeed the minority). But that's not the issue here; Denis' argument is that such people, if they're that good, should instead be investing their time in creating their own original works. Despite my own tutting and shaking of the head when I read his original post on the subject, upon reflection this is a good point.
Then there are the others. Those who aren't quite good enough to make the grade professionally, but who enjoy writing nonetheless. Some of these are not necessarily without worth either, even if they suffer from the aforementioned overwrought prose and other faults which might get them summarily chucked out of a publisher's office. The point is, it's not unenjoyable to read – in much the same way that one can still enjoy watching amateur football, despite it not being as skilful as the professional games, or enjoy reading blogs by people who wouldn't find employment at any local newspaper.
And I know many professional writers attest (I wouldn't dare speak for you Denis) that they can't look back on some of their earliest efforts without cringing somewhat, and perhaps producing fanfiction provides good practice, without using up one's best ideas with sloppy execution. When I was younger, and before I gracefully accepted that I wasn't good enough to write at a professional level, I know that was the original intention behind my writing two stories which could be considered fanfiction. Consider these to be pre-game warmups, perhaps.
So while there is surely a lot of dreck out there, I think there are some valid reasons for fanfiction's continued existence. No, I think rather than it's quality, the main issue I see here is that of the attitude of some of those who produce it. The type of online fanfiction communities we see these days seems different to me than those of even a few years back.
I remember when Babylon 5 fanfiction first started appearing while that show was airing. After having to delay one tale he intended until the third season (after being exposed to a similar story sent to him), its showrunner, Joe Straczynski, was concerned about potential accusations of plagiarism. He came out and said that didn't mind it, indeed liked the idea, but he politely asked the budding B5 fanfic community to do it behind closed doors, or in a corner of the internet where he wouldn't see it, until the show ceased production.
Incredibly, they complied. Happily, too.
I honestly can't see that happening these days. While it might only be a vocal minority causing the problems, they are f*cking vocal, and I think they can stand to suffer a little ego-puncturing now and again.
Keep up the good work.
EDIT: Ah, I see you already shot the blogging analogy down in a reply on the original posting. That's a good point you make.
Also: "it's quality" - damn.
BTW, I read the Doris entry & banter on her blog that you cited. I have the feeling you're referring to the guy who brought up the topic, the whole "plagiarism" part. Honestly, he seemed pretty reasonable and civil to me, just pretty audacious.
I was more put off by the person who pretty much attacked him for his audacity.
She accused Doris Egan of copying fanfic. That's not just audacious to me, that's bordering on libel. The next step is a fanfic writer suing for plagiarism, which is what Egan references, and which demonstrates why fanfic is not just a benign hobby.
That's the fanfic attitude that drives me crazy and makes me hate the whole lot of them, unfair as that might be. The accusation comes from the fact that her recent episode picked up on character ideas the show has been throwing out there since the beginning of the series, ideas that fanfic writers have pounced on and are now claiming as their own because their heads are so far up their butts they think they created the ideas in the first place.
Sorry. Breathe. I am Zen.
Way I read it, and I could be wrong: the person on the board pretty much asked Doris what she thought of "talk in the community" about her taking ideas, not that she thought Doris stole the ideas.
Later, the person seemingly realized that they didn't necessarily speak in the most tactful terms. . .but I never picked up that that person was doing anything more than bring up a topic that was being talked about elsewhere, that Doris wasn't privy to.
I'll give it another read, though. I've misread things here and there before.
Lex, respectfully -- you don't get it.
That's an old journalism dodge. Don't ask someone about the nasty rumor, ask them what they think of what other people are saying or have written about the nasty rumours. It's a mealy-mouthed, chickenshit method of doing the same thing.
And the great thing is, I do this half meant to be funny rant, and it's only a FEW DAYS before the WORST EXAMPLE of what I'm talking about rears its ugly head.
Fanfic writers -- THIS IS YOUR LEGACY. The rest of it doesn't matter. You want to whine about how people are being unfair to you and picking on you and don't understand you?
Fuck you. They're a minority? They're not representative of you?
Great. Denounce them. When they bring their foolish "the writers are copying us!" bullshit up - tell them in no uncertain terms how ridiculous they're being.
Because that little hobby of yours isn't harmless when it libels people who work damn hard inventing the shit that you're lazily riffing off of.
People don't understand you? They don't give you respect?
Fuck you.
Maybe I'm naive, but I don't get how phrasing the question differently that way changes the meaning of the question. Isn't what other people saying pretty much part of the "nasty rumor"?
Just so we're clear, the questioner was not saying "hey, there's talk in the community, what do you have to say about that?" She was saying "I, among others, noticed your script had lines taken directly from fanfic." That's a pretty serious accusation, no matter how she couches it later to try to avoid offence out of the highly offensive.
The non-paraphrased version: "I was not the only person to comment that House's conversation with Bonnie was straight out of fanfic, some lines verbatim. This delights some people, annoys m--er, others."
The "joke" being it annoys "me", of course. So ... the questioner is annoyed that Doris Egan seems to have taken lines verbatim from fanfic. My blood pressure is rising again as I say that's not audacious, that's incredibly fucking stupid. And if she's saying that to Doris Egan's face, you can bet there's some fanfic writers out there comparing lines from the episode to lines from random fanfic to make the case that "he was always there for you" or whatever appeared in fanfic first.
Good point there, Diane. I wasn't reading closely enough. . .I guess having this comment section as a primer, I was thinking "the conversation" annoyed the commenter.
I'll be quiet now.
I like to write fanfiction about myself. I don't like some of the directions the writers have taken my character as of late.
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